EMPEROR PENGUIN>>>
Lazlo Minimart & Mel Stanke
November 1999
by Eric Mast
State who you are and what your place is in the band.
Carl: I am Lazlo Minimart, engineer and synthesizer/guitar/bass player.
Bill: I am Mel Stanke, synthesizer manipulator and guitar/bass/beat research.
How did Emperor Penguin come together?
B: We were in bands together in Indiana. They were diametrically opposed, musically speaking, but we enjoyed each otherıs company and shared a fondness for beer. We have a lot of mutual friends and then when we both ended up in Chicago. Weıd see each other a lot and realized that actually we both like a lot of the same types of music. [That] music might not come through in the music we make together. Weıre both really into ³Smile² and ³Pet Sounds² by The Beach Boys. There was some Eno stuff I was just getting into that I found out Carl knew all about. There was a lot of Public Enemy, or whatever, stuff we realized we were both into. Carl had a bunch of recording equipment and I had a bunch of synthesizers, so we said we should get together sometime to get a beer, get a pizza, and screw around with samples. The first time we got together in Carlıs apartment we left that night with a song on tape. We went to a party and played it and everyone was like, ³Wow, this is great.² We were excited by it and it just sort of became a regular thing to do.
C: That song is on the album, and is called ³Mrs. Bitch.²
B: Then, after a while, we realized we had like three hours of material in the can, we should try to put this out. Eventually Carl, through his recording stuff and activity in the music scene here, he got hooked up with Jon from My Pal God and one thing led to another. We had no intention [of releasing Emperor Penguin] when we first started recording this music, it was like, ³Oh yeah, this is fun. Itıs entertaining.²
C: We were afraid it might bring litigation.
B: Yeah, we were really sampling a lot.
C: We were afraid it might bring lawyers into the equation at first.
B: Weıve become a little bit more judicious with our use of samples. You know, a little more creative.
C: Do more with it than just taking a beat we like and laying shit over it. A lot of times people say, ³Hey, isnıt that the such and such band?² If people notice it, then obviously someone in that band would notice it.
B: When [youıre talking about bands who] put out 700 records on the racks, itıs not like weıre seriously damaging their ability to sell records, but we certainly donıt want to get sued.
I think that the lines are blurry as to whatıs legal and what isnıt anyway.
C: Yeah, itıs very blurry. If you look at Negativland and all the stuff they went through, it was more because they were infringing on someoneıs brand name more than their music. There are a lot of gray areas and sometimes that works to peopleıs advantage and sometimes to their disadvantage. De La Soul got sued for a million dollars and that was like 91/ı92 when a million dollar lawsuit over sampling was pretty rare.
So you guys were still playing in other bands when you started Emperor Penguin?
C: Well, I was in Neutrino, my rock band here [in Chicago]. Bill was putting together a solo project after his last band broke up. Thatıs actually how we came up with the idea for Emperor Penguin. I was recording some of his solo stuff, which is called Winechuggers, and he had a song which will actually be in Emperor Penguin form soon, in the form of our Christmas track on the My Pal God Holiday record later this year. He had a track which was very much like Emperor Penguin, lots of 70s-style keyboards and whatnot...
B: Remember that Dr. Dre moog sound? When ³The Chronic² was really big, you heard it on all those rap records. (Wee noo wee nee.) We were both really into that sound, so weıre like, ³Oh shit, we have the recording equipment to put it on tape and the synthesizers to make that sound and we both like beer and pizza. So letıs get some beers and pizza and go to your house and write some songs.²
C: That was the real genesis of it. The funny thing is when we played that song for all of Billıs roommates, they all looked at us like we were insane. They really did not want us to make music like that.
B: But we went on to make lots of music like that.
So your friends couldnıt hang?
C: Billıs roommates at the time were more pop music enthusiasts, in the traditionalist school.
B: They actually all like Emperor Penguin now that theyıve heard a whole album of it. I just think that at the time it seemed... thereıs an aspect of Emperor Penguin that resembles a terrible joke.
C: Itıs really goofy. Itıs even that we acknowledge it and deal with it, itıs like we foster it. Thereıs some stuff that, for me, is very pretty and melodic and has a great musical sensibility. And then the next track will be this completely goofy, wack-ass shit that we just put on there because it cracked us up.
B: As opposed to a regular band, where there is some sort of democracy, a trio, or quartet or whatever, where one person can say ³Thatıs stupid, I donıt want to do that² and then it doesnıt happen. Carl and I have a similar sense of humor, a similar sense of whatıs funny about Cameo. Or why is Roger Troutman funny, or what makes vocoders humorous, or wheezing synthesizers like Dr. Dre? So we can indulge in that stuff and as long as we both find it entertaining, itıll end up on tape somewhere.
It helps sometimes to have less people to veto things.
B: We aggravate each others sensibilities for the obscure and ridiculous.
C: I always try to push Bill to do something ridiculous, as often as I try to push him to do something thatıs actually musically interesting. I do think there is Emperor Penguin music that if you were to play it on a piano, it would be really pretty.
Even the B-side to the 7² is a bit more introspective.
B: Yeah, thereıs not really anything wacky about that song, itıs just a pretty song.
C: That was basically where Bill brought the beat by on a record, we put it down and then it largely came about through building it up by myself. That track is not very much like the other stuff, partly for that reason. Itıs leaning a little bit more heavily on my personality in a lot of ways.
B: That single is a good example of our different musical personalities, because the A-side obviously is this huge goofy song. Itıs very over the top and a lot of things on it weıre making fun of, but... We were just talking about this today before the interview. The guy whoıs living in this apartment where weıre conducting this interview, his dad was into Styx and we were joking about doing a Styx cover at our next show. And thereıs something about that super-ultra cheesey progressive rock synthesizer stuff thatıs on that A-side of the single that I find really entertaining and humorous, although at the same time I find it highly repugnant. But I like the fact that we can put out a record that has something completely ludicrous on one side and the other side is a very restrained, pretty, melodic song. If a band like Ween were to put out a song like that people would be like, ³Oh my God, what are they doing?² But nobody has any expectations for what we are doing, so we can do that. We donıt give a shit, they donıt give a shit, so everybodyıs happy.
Do you guys do all your recording at home?
C: Everything that weıve released has been recorded in my apartment.
B: That to me is so much more preferable. The band that I used to be in, we did the traditional thing. We played a bunch of shows until we found somebody who was willing to put up the money to do a record in the studio and the results were really not that great. And then Carl and I started recording in my old apartment and I realized how much more relaxed and conducive to being creative it was. Youıre in your own home, eating your own food, the phone rings and itıs for you because itıs your apartment. And the fact that Carl had all this recording equipment around, it seemed like an obvious conclusion that we should record in his house. It ended up being a lot simpler than trying to find a studio. It has been really entertaining.
I guess if youıre recording as you write, then itıs part of the process and less of a surprise than coming out the studio with a version of a song that you didnıt expect.
B: I think when you write a bunch of music and then take it to the studio it sort of imposes this weird feel on it. Whereas, I would hang out at Carlıs apartment anyway and weıd be sitting around in his living room, the only difference was we happened to have some musical instruments out. So it was very relaxed. If we get burned out, want to stop and go get a beer, food, or whatever itıs no big deal. If youıre in a studio and you booked a day itıs like, ³Oh God, weıve got to put this music on tape, itıs gotta be perfect.² Thereıs tons of screw-ups in this record, itıs so rough, but it doesnıt matter, as long as the feeling of the music comes through, thatıs whatıs important to me.
C: Itıs funny how different you feel about that when youıre not spending money. For some reason when youıre spending money on a recording, you will go to great lengths to suck the soul out of something to make it perfect because you think ³Well, yes it costs me $1000, but itıs perfect.² And it might be flawless technically, but it may not be very musical to listen to. Thatıs something that Iıve certainly learned in my musical experience.
B: If you think of your music like itıs a basketball and you only have one chance to go to the hoop and youıve got to make it perfect then you totally over-intellectualize everything and reduce everything into this micro-management phase, which is bullshit. But if youıre doing it at home and it doesnıt matter, youıre on your own schedule, not spending money on anything other than tape, just goofing around basically, youıre a lot more open to trying stuff. Almost all the songs on the first record we put out, and a lot on the second, they werenıt planned out at all. We either had a beat or a loop and just started messing with it. Some came out right away with no problems and others weıd work on for months and months, but the nice thing about it was that there was never any feeling like, ³This is our one chance to get this right.² It was this nice mellow feeling of evolving something until we both agreed it was done. To me that is the big advantage of recording your music at home.
C: I could be wrong about this, but I donıt think that weıve tried to do something that weıve abandoned and that ended up in a pile of songs that we donıt plan to do anything with. I think everything weıve started we saw to completion and deemed worthy of release.
B: Then again, somebody could listen to the record and say, ³Why did they think that?²
C: Yeah, if you put out a 72 minute record, it begs the question, ³Is there fat that can be trimmed off of here?² But when I listen to that CD, to me, it flows pretty well. Obviously Iım biased, but I donıt feel like weıve stuck a bunch of crappy shit on there just to fluff it out.
B: Thereıs a reason why that record is so long. Itıs a frustrating thing, but Iıll try to make it a brief story. We considered the material on ³Shatter the Illusion² to be two separate albums in our minds. We made two twelve track records and we saw those as our first record and our second record and weıd already started working on a third. We felt really strongly about the compilation of the songs, but we didnıt want to put out the first album, and then wait six months to a year later for the second album to come out and then have the stuff thatıs really old come out right now. We wanted to be excited about what we were putting out. So we combined what we considered to be the best songs from the two records and thatıs what became ³Shatter the Illusion². It happened to be a lot of material. The good thing about that is what we considered to be our third record is now going to be our second record and that stuffıs not that old and still sounds really fresh to us. We have out third album, ³Mysterious Pony,² in the can. I donıt want to get to the point where weıre putting things out a year after weıve completed it.
C: I never saw any reason for holding back on a release schedule. Bands like Trans Am or The Sea and Cake were putting records out very regularly for awhile. To me, itıs like, if youıre writing songs that fast, put it out that fast if you have a way to get it out to people. Iım really psyched that we can be putting records out every six to eight months. Weıve built up this system where weıre always working on and simultaneously releasing music. Itıs very nice.
B: Even so, Iıll actually be excited when we get to the point where we put out a record and we have to write all new material for our next record. Right now thereıs no chance of that because weıre so far ahead of schedule.
C: Thatıs when we do the concert film.
B: We remake Styxıs ³Paradise Theatre² with us as the central characters, or maybe ³A Hard Dayıs Night².
C: We would hire Muppets to portray us though.
B: I have a request, please edit this.
C: Yeah, weıre blabbering. Itıs late, weıve had a fucked up weekend, weıre drinking beer. And heıs still asking for another.
B: Edit all of that I just said out.
Iıll cut it all out. So youıre more of a band that drinks beer rather than coffee when you record?
C: Oh yeah, well thatıs Bill.
B: Yeah, Carlıs pretty mellow.
C: I donıt know if Iıd call myself mellow when Iım drinking coffee though.
B: There was this very funny packaging that Carl made when we thought we were going to put out just the first twelve songs and it had all these fake liner notes that were written in the year 2000 for a zine called Mush Beat. In it he was talking about a series of primitive sampling experiments involving frozen pizza and beer. In a large way that really was the initial theme. It would be me and Carl in his living room, on the north side of Chicago, with Tombstone frozen cheese pizza and a twelve pack of beer. Weıd just record until it was all gone and then Iıd go home.
C: We had a fake history for the band plotted out by the time weıd written our third song.
B: Right, it was very much something we did to crack ourselves up. I remember very distinctly going to this party and playing the first thing we recorded and this friend of ours was like, ³Wow, this is great. You gotta record more music.² Until that minute when she said that I was like, ³Hereıs some goofy shit that Carl and I made for kicks,² and it dawned on me how much I enjoyed the process of making that one song and how much I preferred that to the practice-make a record-tour-practice-make a record-tour world that Iıd been into up to that point.
Well thatıs more of a 90ıs modern phenomenon too, to be able to home produce like that too.
C: Itıs definitely a new phenomenon that the 35 year old geek in his bedroom with a computer is making jungle records for thousands of ravers in the UK. Itıs an amazing thing. I always picture this scene of a rave happening, with thousands of people freaking out, taking ecstasy, and then some DJ says, ³Ladies and gentlemen, the man who wrote the record that youıre dancing to.² And then they bring out this guy who looks like Bill Gates. You can actually sit in your house, make a record from start to finish, make your master there and send it off to a pressing plant, and make a 12², and no one else has to be involved in it. B: Within walking distance from the apartment weıre in right now I know five or six people who have studios in their houses, whether itıs a hard drive system, ADAT, or tape machine. I remember when I was in high school twelve years ago the two kids I knew in high school who had 4-tracks I thought were the coolest kids ever. By the time I finished college I probably knew twenty people who recorded music at home. Now most of the musicians I know think that youıre a sucker if you go into the studio, because you can easily find somebody who can record music, knows what theyıre doing, has some good mics, and is willing to do it a lot cheaper and youıll get better music from it because youıre relaxed and itıs not a crisis situation.
C: Well, as an engineer who is frequently employed by bands, I gotta say that it takes a certain personality type to do recording well, whether at home or the studio. Iım not going to lie to you and tell you that anybody is as good an engineer as Steve Albini or Brian Paulson. My other band, Neutrino, recorded with Steve Albini and when you have equipment like that and the experience on the equipment there is a huge difference in the quality, but itıs really more a matter of whatıs more important to you. An engineer like that really wouldnıt be all that comfortable with the material of a band like Emperor Penguin.
B: And thereıs no need for them anyway.
A lot of it is dealing with live drums versus direct inputs.
C: Thatıs one of the fundamental differences. You donıt see a lot of engineering credits on electronic records because theyıre pretty much made by the artists, start to finish. Rock bands often rely on the studio. Thatıs not necessarily a bad thing.
B: Itıs really freeing to make something at home from start to finish that you really feel good about. Itıs a more subversive medium than the current state of rock music.
C: In terms of the DIY perspective, you can do more with the electronic medium. You can record, master it and send it off to a pressing plant or just put it on the internet and become well known from your bedroom. Rock bands have to tour, have to play live, have to go through a lot more of the traditional means to get heard.
It is subversive when one person can do everything.
B: Thereıs another element of it too, from my perspective playing in bands where thereıs a drummer, bass player, guitar player, singer, thereıs a certain number of types of sounds that you can make. But if you have a computer, thereıs shit on our records, really pretty strings, horn ensembles or crazy Cuban percussion that thereıs no way you could replicate with the guitar/drums thing. It opens stuff up so much to do things, arrangement wise, that you would never think of in a traditional rock band. So in that sense itıs kind of liberating because it lets you think in a wider screen.
Thatıs what I was going for.
B: Every time I read a review of our record that compares us to somebody that Iıve never heard of, I go and check it out. Bands like Sukia, Sukpatch, bands Iıd never heard of, and itıs all variations on a central theme of taking somebodyıs elseıs sounds or making your own sounds and then deconstructing them or fucking with them until they are interesting to you. The idea of sound as something you just play around with, instead of writing a pop song and arranging it for a power trio, which Iıve done and tons of people have done. It made me think about music differently. It got to a point where, this thing weıd started as a lark, I started to realize I was getting more enjoyment as a musician from it than playing in a band, fluffing out arrangements. We donıt have to arrange for any ensemble. We can do whatever we want. If we want to have a song that has bass, drums, and a chicken cackling, we can do that. Itıs very liberating and thatıs the aspect of electronic music that is the most attractive to me.
So how did you make the switch over to the live setting?
C: It becomes a rock band. Luckily, we had some really talented people on line for that. The drummer from Neutrino, Brian Wnukowski, our friend Sean Benham plays keyboard/bass/some guitar, and our friend Andrew Nord who is the ³president², for lack of a better word, of Box Factory Records plays keyboards. It becomes sort of a big, opulent rock band. Itıs sort of a Gary Numan-esque scene.
B: The downside of not limiting yourself to a specific ensemble is that when you want to perform it live you have to think ³How the hell are we going to make this happen on a stage?² So we picked some friends and Carl burned a CDR of all the samples from the record and we get to sound check and the bass drum is bouncing the stage, the CDR skipping and everything is going haywire. The fifteen minutes before we did that first show all I could think about was how much I wouldıve rather been in my old band where it was guitar/bass/drums/singer and it goes.
You didnıt even have a sampler?
C: I was triggering the samples from a CDR, which was totally ridiculous.
B: It didnıt work and the guy who was running sound there was troubleshooting the DIs, so we were on stage for probably ten minutes with no sound from any of the synthesizers.
C: Everything that was sampled on the record was either sampled on the computer or a digital delay pedal.
B: Itıs not hi-tech at all. Carl just now bought a sampler, which will probably solve a lot of the CDR problems, and one of the things that Iım excited about is that we got a vocoder. To me the sum of all electronic music is some guy talking like a robot. Iım really excited to go to the Empty Bottle here in Chicago and talk like a robot to a bunch of people I donıt know. Beyond that, itıs a weird thing to take a bunch stuff you wrote with one other person with no thoughts of any limitation. How should we perform it? If we want to put strings on a song, we find a sample, or if we want to put a cow bell on it, we find a sample. Then you get to the point where youıre going to do a show and itıs like how the hell are we going to do strings and cow bells and backing vocals? But it works out. I was really surprised, I thought that people would be throwing tomatoes, potatoes and rocks at us, but they were into it. I think that people like to see something a little different than another rock and roll band. There was a show here last weekend with five bands which was almost all laptop stuff. And whether or not musically itıs that good itıs interesting to see people expanding the notion of what you can do in a rock club with music. People are more than willing to see something different, thank god.
In big cities itıs even getting harder to find a practice space for a rock band, so people are sometimes turning inward out of necessity.
C: Thereıs no doubt about it. You have to give rock bands their props because they go through more shit. Itıs easier in a lot of ways to make electronic music.
B: Carl just got back from tour and itıs hard work, and our band is a piece of cake. I have a super short attention span and Iım proud of myself that Iım still excited by a band Iıve been playing in for two odd years. Partially thatıs because musically itıs interesting, but the other side is that thereıs no effort involved. Carl, you guys [Neutrino] rehearse once or twice a week, then play out regularly doing shows and scheduling concerts... Emperor Penguin is like turning on a TV in a way because itıs fun, itıs easy and itıs natural.
You guys have the rock background rather than coming from an electronic background too.
B: Yeah, I would say so. We both like Brian Eno, but Carl actually knows whatıs going on in electronic music. Every once and a while Iıll hear a record I like, like that Boards of Canada record. But I think the reason I like it so much is because itıs so strong as a pop record. Itıs really catchy, melodic and pretty, but when I hear something like Oval I think it feels kinda rough and cold. Our music is basically pop, indie-rock.
C: Thereıs no doubt about it, weıre not electronica, weıre definitely an indie-rock band. Itıs just the tools are different.
B: Thereıs a lot of songs that we could arrange for guitar, bass, drums and it might sound like Superchunk. (Carl laughs.) That might be a bad example.
C: Yes, thatıs a bad example.
B: I mean, on a lot of our stuff, thereıs a verse part, a chorus part and a melody over top. Most of the melodies are things you could hum or sing. Iım not going to go home and hum a DJ Cam melody because I donıt know what the fuck it is. I like blooping and bleeping, I think itıs great, but as far as our music goes itıs a lot more rooted in traditional pop music. I think when we do our brass band record though itıs gonna really turn a lot of peopleıs heads to realize that weıre not just limited to synthesizers.
Most of those early Herb Alpert records he was playing all the instruments, too. He was the Tijuana Brass. So perhaps we owe him a big dept as well.
B: Herb Alpertıs the man.
Whatıs some music that you guys are listening to these days?
B: When I went to work today, I had a CD of the Swingle Singers. (Carl laughs.) Itıs this French vocal group, they did this whole record of Bach music. Itıs called Jazz Sebastian Bach and itıs kind of cheesey.
C: Kinda?
B: Okay, itıs really cheesey, but itıs really entertaining. Actually, Iıve been listening to a lot of Bach lately, which sounds kind of pretentious, but thatıs what I took to work today: Bach, Swingle Singers doing Bach, the third Velvet Underground, and Boards of Canada.
C: I took to work today the Purkinje Shift, a really good instrumental rock band from Atlanta, Nobukaza Takemura, the new Jim OıRourke record... We both have diverse tastes. B: I want to get that Pachinko record, not the band Pachinko, but the guy who recorded the Pachinko parlor in Japan. We both like the new Lilyıs record, itıs a great pop record.
What kind of day jobs are you guys working?
C: Iım a tech writer.
B: Iım a producer for a web site. Itıs desk jobs, not bad jobs, but nothing like sky diver instructor or anything fun.
C: Iım happy to say that Iıve worked on many an Emperor Penguin song at work.
B: I havenıt been at my new job long enough in order to slack off enough, but Iım looking forward to getting to the point where I can slack off more and work on Emperor Penguin.
What are your favorite pieces of equipment?
B: The pile of gear we have between us, the best stuff is probably the Moog Prodigy, which is probably the coolest synthesizer ever, the Korg Delta, which is highly underrated, a generic black bass that Carl has...
C: Itıs a freakinı Precision bass.
B: Thatıs a real Fender? We have this Aria reverb that just sounds so good with everything and we drench everything in it. The other band I do, Winechuggers, continues the saga of the Aria reverb unit as it degenerates into uselessness because itıs falling apart more every time we use it. Carl just got a Roland Dr. Sample that Iım excited about.
C: I donıt think weıll use it on records much, but itıs definitely a good live tool.
B: We got a vocoder, too. Our third record is going to be called ³Mysterious Pony² and weıre working on the title track right now. Itıs sort of an homage, if I may use the French terminology, to the late great Roger Troutman, to Cameo, Zapp, the mid-eighties electro-funk drum machine shit with vocoder. When all the people who heard the first record and said ³Whereıs the singing?² hear the robot singing on the third record, theyıre going to be really happy that we bought a vocoder.
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